BIRD WILLIAMS: You're listening to Bird Means Business Episode 90. 

Hello, Hello, and thank you for tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. I'm your host, Bird Williams. And you being here means you clicked to hear a podcast episode about how to co-agitate for racial justice through your business. You chose to lean into this conversation. And that says a lot about who you are, what you value, and that you're trying. I just want to recognize you for that and honor you for showing up here today. You'll be better for it. Our business community will be better for it. Heck, we'll all be better for it. 

My people, I have two phenomenal women on today's show. Virginia Cumberbatch and Megan Harding are the co-founders of Rosa Rebellion, a platform for creative activism by and for women of color. 

As a creative activist, writer, and scholar, Virginia's work sits at the intersection of community equity and storytelling. She served as Director of Equity and Community Advocacy for the University of Texas at Austin's Division of Diversity and Community Engagement. And she serves as a global racial justice educator and speaker working with brands such as Lululemon, Gensler, Bumble, and the World Economic Forum to establish an ethos of equity and racial justice. 

Megan develops Rosa Rebellion's cohorts and curates the community of creative activists and agitators. She is a creative and a justice advocate with a passion for racial and gender equity. As a civil rights attorney, Megan encounters the consequences of systemic inequity frequently and engages in the disruptive work to eradicate it. Megan has served in multiple roles, including as the Vice Chair of the city of Austin's Ethics Review Commission, and as a member of the Criminal and Civil Justice working for the mayor's Task Force on institutional racism. 

My goodness. Y'all, these ladies are both powerhouses in their fields. And you should just buckle right on up because they are about to drop some gems in our conversation, and really get us thinking. 

But before we get into the episode, my friends, this is the last day of our Prepare to Launch challenge. We have spent the last ten days checking off simple practical tasks that will bring us closer to making our dream businesses a reality. And I could not be more honored to have walked through this journey with you. 

Now whether you've been in the challenge or not, you can still join right now and jump into the final live session we'll have in our Facebook group. Just go to birdwilliams.com/challenge. On today's live, I'll be recapping all of what we learned during the challenge and sharing some incredible wins. You will not regret being in the virtual room and getting this free business game. So go to birdwilliams.com/challenge for all the deets and to join us. I hope to see you there soon. All right, let's dive into this incredible conversation with Virginia and Megan of Rosa Rebellion. 

Ladies, I am so glad to have you on Bird Means Business podcast. How's it going?

VIRGINIA CUMBERBATCH AND MEGAN HARDING: Good! 

BIRD: Yes, I'm really excited about this conversation. It's one that I know is super important. And one that I know that you've done so much incredible work around. So to really just get started, I'd love for you to let my listeners know what Rosa Rebellion is, why it was born. Kind of just talk to your origin story.

VIRGINIA: I think particularly it'll be fun telling it in this space, Ashley because you're helping folks form their businesses and think about sort of those unknowns and questions. And I think Megan and I have such an organic story in terms of how Rosa Rebellion was birthed. And I think Megan does a really good job of telling it. It really is one of those kinds of like meet cute kind of moments like at a coffee shop and friends just getting together. So I'm gonna let Megan talk more about our origin story. And I can share a little bit more about Rosa Rebellion's mission.

MEGAN: Yeah, so I think it was 2017, 2016. But we started to meet just as friends just getting together, creative synergy to some degree. But really wanted to just work on like our creative projects together. So we would meet like, early in the morning, before work, there were some nights, or whatever. And we knew that we both had a passion for racial justice and gender equity and social justice. And we were both kind of doing that work in our regular lives. And we wanted to just see what there was creatively that we could do. And so we're like meeting at coffee shops and hanging out. And then one day, Virginia mentions that she's had this like name. She's like, I don't know what it's gonna be. And I didn't know at the time, but she had not really shared this name. She had been kind of protective of it. And she had had it for a couple years. And she said Rosa Rebellion. And I was like, one I love alliteration. Two, and you know, this about me, Ashley. I've named businesses for people. I really should charge for it. But I name businesses for people all the time. And that's like, just one of the things I love to do. 

And so I loved the name. So she had her computer. I like stole her computer. And I like immediately bought the domain aggressive.

VIRGINIA: She's very aggressive, by the way. Very aggressive. I was like, why are you taking my laptop? Calm down. 

MEGAN: I was like, let's buy this domain name. Let's lock it in, again, not knowing what it would become. And then I really wanted to do some work around mental wellness for activists. I was really kind of aware of the way that this work, working in social justice, could really take a toll on your mental wellness. And also with like, my friends that were in the space and what it was doing to them. And so that's kind of what became our first project was Rebel and Rest around mental wellness for activists. And it kind of organically grew. Like, oh, what could Rosa Rebellion be? We think that it would be great if we could take our creativity, pair it with our activism, and use that to kind of reclaim our stories, and to drive policy, and to drive social change. And Rebel and Rest was the first thing we were able to do that with. And so it just kept growing. And we kept iterating. And then we kind of landed on okay, this is what this is. And we believe that we're feeling like a real need.

VIRGINIA: And one of the things that I think is really special, which often we know businesses are birthed out of a lack, a gap, a need that we see either in our specific industry or in our community, and I think Megan and I in our individual spheres of influence, right? In some ways, we're modeling what we want it to create at Rosa Rebellion. 

At the time I was working, I was directing the Institute for Social Justice in the Center for Community Engagement at the University of Texas. So I was doing this work through the resources and infrastructure of an institution of higher learning, Megan, was serving as a civil rights attorney. And so we were doing this work right in these very sort of pre-determined institutions and spaces that Megan and I talk about all the time, that weren't innately built for people that look like us. So we're not only doing this work on behalf of these institutions, but we're also having to do the work within the institutions to create a space of belonging for ourselves. 

But one of the throughlines that I have always had through my work was storytelling, like I use that as a tool in how we built relationships and trust with community, how we amplify voices of communities that have been marginalized. And I always felt like we were being asked to choose, right, to choose to be storytellers, authors, writers, and be what we typically have defined as activists. And Megan and I talked about the time that our calling isn't always to be in the streets protesting, right? Our disruption happens in other ways. It happens in storytelling. It happens in policy. It happens in law. And we just wanted to create a space that reflected our own sort of personal journey, which was to honor and recognize the innovation and disruption that women of color are having to do in every sphere of influence. And through their creativity, they're birthing these incredible opportunities to create new structures, to tell untold stories, and to broker change in unique ways. And so Rosa Rebellion is a platform for creative activism by and for women of color. And our goal is to celebrate, to liberate, and to interrogate these systems that weren't built for us. 

Megan and I, it's really funny, I think, probably every three months, we have this moment, either by text or phone call. We'll just be like, we got like a real business. We've got a team. We have people on payroll. Like, we have partners that are coming to us, right? And so it's kind of this incredible recognition of the opportunity to unapologetically show up as yourself and create space for others in doing that. And I think one of the tenants that walks through Rosa Rebellion that we're really excited to model is that we want to invest in the work of women of color, right? That's why we are a for-profit. And the same way we're like, we should be honored for our work and for our investments. And so to be able to build a business around that vision has been wonderful and even more of an honor to do it alongside Megan. 

BIRD: Oh, that sounds like a dream. I mean, I know that there's so many people listening who are probably like, I would love to be like having coffee hangs with one of my friends and we just come up with this business idea, right? It sounds so incredible and for it to start there and to now be where you're saying, "We have a team. We have partners coming to us". That's huge, right? So I am just so proud to see how Rosa Rebellion has blossomed. And again, just so excited to have you on. 

I love what you mentioned about creative activism. Because when it comes to thinking of ourselves as activists, it's like, what does that mean? Am I supposed to go to protests and hold posters? And I think that 2020, especially, highlighted so many deep-rooted issues of racial injustice in our country. And I think so many business owners are in this really awkward place, just to be honest. They're like, do I show up? How do I show up? How do I actually respect and honor these spaces and not just do like the performative allyship? And so that's really what I want to speak on. How can business owners think about creative activism and co-agitation through their brands? Should they? What are some ideas for how that could look? Could you speak to that?

MEGAN: Yeah, I think first, we need to give some definition. I think a lot of times people don't have the language. And so when we talk about co-agitation at Rosa Rebellion, we're talking about moving from allyship, which is sort of passive, which is like, "Yeah, I support you. I don't hate you", as this passive posture. To call agitation, which is an active posture, which is really leveraging your power and your privilege to disrupt systems on behalf of other people. And so at the core, or at the base of what I think activism is, is disruption. And I think me and Virginia both kind of had some like reluctance even around calling ourselves activists at first, because you do have the traditional, like, I'm on the front lines of an organized march. And that's super, super important. And that is a form of activism. But there's also activism in like your everyday life in the spaces that you occupy, whether that be in your community, your work, your faith community, whatever. Are you being a disrupter on behalf of marginalized people? And so that's kind of what we mean by co-agitation. 

Last summer, we had the whole like, pass-share the mic thing, which was great. People with really big platforms, saying I'm going to turn my mic over to primarily black women. And then we have the kind of black box solidarity, which Ashley you wrote about. And it was something in the sense of it showed kind of where someone stood, where maybe their brand stood on the issue. But the issue that came from that was like, the black box is not the work though. It's not the work. Perhaps you're sending a certain message, which, for consumers, or people, who are going to work with you, it's not that doesn't matter, it is important. But what do your internal processes, your internal structure look like at your business? And not just like shallow diversity of just like, okay, do I have a diverse staff? Can I put the pictures on a website so people know? But what does it really mean to create a space of inclusion and belonging? And so that's everything from who's leading? How have you seated power? Where do you have holes in your trusting the expertise of these other people? All of that is important to interrogate your internal structures. 

And then externally, I think they followed up on like, all these businesses that made like the commitment for the black box. And it's like an abysmal number that have actually done anything. And so it's one on learning, and learning what you need to learn, but then also, like being sure that you are doing the work. And I think like Virginia can really speak to what that work might look like.

VIRGINIA: Yeah, I mean, I think, as Megan said, language is so important, because I think in some ways, we have created this dynamic, even in sort of this conversation of diversity, inclusion, and equity. But it's lost its meaning because we've been really comfortable and sort of complicit in allowing those words to land in a way where that's the work. Because we said, we built this committee, because we said we did this on our website. And so that transition from allyship to co-agitation, I think is really critical. even just psychologically, before we even get to understanding what the work looks like. 

This week I was talking to someone, it's almost this idea of like, we actually don't need you to stand in solidarity, because that's a place of complicitness and a place of apathy. We need you to move in solidarity. So like defining what that movement looks like for you. And I think it's also really important to recognize that there is no one size fits all. And so doing the work to interrogate and explore how that shows up in your core mission, how that shows up in your product is part of the work. So like taking care of the internal. Whereas I think 2020, because it was so visceral and politicized, people felt the need to move externally before they had done the work internally. So the idea was like, well, I want our consumers to know that we're doing something. Also a little bit of like, I want to have that buy-in so people trust me as an organization or business. And it's like, if that does not align with the internal dynamic, and experience, and environment in your organization, then that isn't sustainable. Then it is just performative. Then it is just sort of you telling a story that's not actually being lived out. 

And so doing the work to explore what are your practices? What are your policies, what's your organizational paradigm? Right? If you say you sell a shampoo for all, let's really examine the "all" part. What was the work that went behind to make sure it actually supports different communities? Then what voices have you invited in to serve as experts in your space? And that's oftentimes where it happens. We talk a lot about ceding power, privilege, and position. But so many of us are not willing to see particularly that last part. And so who have you deemed as a thought leader or an expert in your space of influence, because that oftentimes tells a lot about how you're actually creating a space of belonging and inclusion. 

And I think the last piece around how this is lived out, is removing ourselves from the narrative that this work can be accomplished through one action, right? It is not attending a workshop, not attending a training. It is not doing one social media campaign. This is long-term life-long work that has to be sustained. And so being willing to put yourself in position or your organization in position where you're constantly learning and unlearning is part of the work of shifting your posture. Because we get really comfortable with the idea of like, alright, we did it. We solved racism. I posted the black box to say, okay, we've learned something. Or we've unlearned a practice that we knew was being detrimental or painful. 

And I think the other piece that you brought up Ashley, that's important, is a lot of people are like, "I sell soap, or I just do taxes for people. What does that have to do with racial justice?" And again, it's not always about how that is expressed externally, although people's interactions with you are a part of that work. But it's also examining your position as a business owner, as an organization to say, how are you maintaining or sustaining the work of racial justice? And if the answer to that question is that you're actually a disruption to it, then there's something that needs to be further interrogated there.

MEGAN: Yeah. I also think, Virginia, along those lines, like economic justice, and racial justice go hand in hand. And so perhaps you only do taxes or you sell soap, right? But like, Who are your vendors? Who do you use for your processes? There's even things like scheduling tools like Calendly, which is black-owned. Things like that. Interrogate where you're using your dollars or your privilege or your power. 

And then I guess, to like, really drill down Ashley, to give people more concrete examples. From personal experience, I've had a white male coworker, who I would consider a co-agitator. He would probably call himself an ally. But he was very self-aware. And so we would get asked to speak at things. And if he looked at the panel, and it was all white people, he would say, I don't think they need me. Like, I think maybe Megan should go. Is she available? Or sitting in meetings with white co-workers who maybe after an event, say George Floyd, chose to use their voice to speak up about like, "Hey, there might be some feelings today that our black co-workers are feeling. Is there something we can do?" Or going to management. And that way you unburden me. If I'm one of three or one of four, and sometimes I've been the only, it's a lot to carry, to think about like, "Man, okay, I'm hurting. I'm raw. I'm trying to like make sense of this thing that doesn't make any sense. I'm watching us be brutalized. And I have to show up to work and like, be on." And so the idea that those conversations could happen without me, with other people advocating, really unburdens me. That's a form of co-agitation. That's really showing up and unburdening people of color. 

VIRGINIA: And I think that a piece of it is not only talking to folks who are the leaders in their space or the owners of their businesses. Part of it is, yes, how you create space, but it's also how do you hold space in whatever room you're in. I often do this exercise with folks where I just ask them, "How much does race impact your daily life?" And most folks who aren't walking in melanated bodies will answer that question as like 3%, 5% because for them, it's how much do I think about it? How much does it become a part of my daily dialogue? Or how exposed am I to communities of color? But that is what is so detrimental is not acknowledging that actually race is impacting your daily life 100%. Because of the privilege, you have to walk into spaces, without having to consider how you will be perceived, how you will be treated, and not recognizing the power you hold. And the fact that you're in a space, perhaps with other people of color, and the ways in which your voice carries in that space. 

So what Megan speaks to is that self-awareness to say, "There's something that has transpired in the world. How am I holding space to not only support the people around me, but to provide an opportunity for people to feel seen and heard?" is a critical piece of creating your posture of racial justice. That it doesn't always have to be what's happening externally. It doesn't have to be what's happening through sort of the mechanism of your communication. It's how are you holding space? 

And I think the last thing that I would share around this, Megan alluded to, sort of that racial justice is innately connected to economic parity. I think another piece of that which is very connected to the work of Rosa Rebellion, is that racial justice is intersectional, in everything that we do. And so we often talk about gender equity as well. And there's this idea that the diversity behind having women in seats of power is enough. How many of us have done the work to recognize the nuanced experiences and therefore the nuanced disruptions that women of color face in terms of having to hold space for the ways in which they walk in this world as women and the ways in which the world perceives them as women of color, specifically, as we know what the experience of walking in this world as a black woman. And so equipping yourselves with those stories, and with those understandings, is what helps to inform your work and how you do your work. Megan, and I talk a lot about that there's really only two ways that we are kind of operating, right? We're either unconsciously upholding systems of oppression, or we are consciously and intentionally dismantling them. No matter what work we're doing in this world, we can intentionally be doing the work of dismantling in whatever sphere of influence that we're a part of. 

BIRD: Wow! So that was amazing from both of you. So many gems there, so much to really just consider and unpack and really do some digging to think about. And I hope that those listening, while yes, it might be an uncomfortable conversation, a tense conversation, some things you might have to look up and learn. That is doing the work. And I just encourage you to lean into it. 

So if you're taking notes, I'm hearing things like it's not just a moment or one thing you do. It's not just the MLK post or whatever it might be. It is a commitment to a lifestyle of co-agitation and creative activism. It's maybe looking into your core values and your mission and really thinking about how, at a very fundamental level, your business creates space for people who might not look like you. Is that one thing? 

And then also, I love what Megan brought up with vendors, right? Who are you actually paying to do your email marketing, to do the different things that you're paying for in your business? Are you creating space there and the economic tie? One content creator I follow talked openly about this. She's a white woman, she talked openly about examining who she has on our podcast. She has a very famous podcast. She's like, wow, it's like all white women, you know, pretty much. She was very intentional. And it wasn't just a one time it's like, I'm still seeing her being extremely intentional about making that diverse as well. So I heard that too.

VIRGINIA: I just wanted to add one thing, Ashley, piggybacking off of what Megan was saying around who are you investing in as your vendors and partners. I often encourage people to also recognize the power in helping to disrupt the pipeline. We've talked a lot about, like, "We just couldn't find anyone". And it's oftentimes because folks are looking only in their communities. Sort of three degrees of separation. And so okay, if you have an internship program, who are you hiring? But also being cognizant of the fact that what do you need to change about your practices to ensure that you can truly support a more diverse internship line. Part of that is recognizing that free internships not only are not equitable and should be banned across the board but does not allow for there to be certain lived experiences to be a part of your organization. And so really examining your practices, not just sort of the output of that, I think is really important. 

And then the other thing I would just share is, Megan and I joke all the time. Y'all the power of Google, like to educate yourself. Like it's the most incredible tool of all time. And so in two ways, Megan and I were talking about, there is an unburdening that can happen, right? Where you're not taxing your few employees of color or your few friends of color, because there's one thing to ask someone to be a part of your education. And you have honored that education through either financial compensation or a change in title. It's another thing to expect someone to be a part of your education process with no reciprocity. And so the power of Google, the power of history. Megan and I are huge advocates of that. This work can't start in June 2020. And this work certainly can't start August 31, 2021. This is decades and centuries in the making. And so if you have not equipped yourself with the knowledge and the context of how your industry has been formed. Or how certain processes that you have included in your business plan, maybe innately, are inequitable. Then it's really hard to do the work to dismantle it because you don't know what routes need to be plucked.

MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah, there was so much there, Virginia. I think like even when you think about the internship piece, which Virginia mentioned. A free internship doesn't allow certain voices to be present, because there's a long history of economic injustice and a huge wealth gap. And so some people when they're in college, and they're trying to get experience, they can't afford to not get paid for that experience. But they might have all sorts of things that they could add to your business. One, lived experience grit, which is an intangible that I think everybody should be interviewing for, that you get from just struggle a lot of times. And so I think you really, I guess, filter out those voices based on certain practices. 

And then the other thing I wanted to mention with the story that you shared, Ashley, about the woman that examined her podcast. I always ask people to just like, really, really audit yourself from a place of honesty. like, really get real, real with yourself. So if you kind of take that story, Ashley, you pair it with what Virginia said about pipelines. So often, people are getting jobs or getting contracts like partnerships and things strictly through like, who they know. And for a lot of us in melanated bodies, we've had to navigate this world that is white. So we've had to like figure out how to form connections and things like that. And a lot of times white people really can have the ability to kind of like stay in their bubble and just go to Dad's friend or whoever. And so it takes a lot of intentionality that they have not built the muscle for over the course of their life, to really diversify kind of their pipeline. I'm not saying to diversify from a shallow place, a performative place, right? Or a demanding place, but to really just recognize, like, whoa. If I look around my sphere of influence, it's all white people. How can I disrupt this, just like what the woman does with the podcast? 

And then the other thing is like, don't be afraid to be like, yeah, like, I've missed the mark on this. You know, I think people are so afraid, especially now with people feeling like cancel culture is running rampant. Sometimes it really is. And then sometimes it really is just accountability. But either way, I don't want to get into that. But I understand the fear, right? The fear of, "I've spent all this time building my business to this point. And if I do this wrong, then what happens? Do I lose it all?" And so then you just don't do anything. You sit in action. And so I can tell you, you will get it wrong. We get it wrong, we do this work day in and day out. You will make mistakes. But that is not a reason to not move towards action. And so you have to just really get comfortable with, "I might mess this up". And if you do, I think the best thing you can do is just sincerely apologize, pivot and edit what you're doing and do better. Like that is the human experience. 

VIRGINIA: I also think there's power in inviting people into that journey, like more so than it is to fake it, to come from the lens of performative action. There's actually a lot of power in the sincerity and inviting your community whether that's patrons and customers or partners, to be your sounding board. If you do it kind of in isolation behind closed doors because you're afraid of what the outcome will be, you miss out on the opportunity to have your work informed by the people who will ultimately be the ones holding you accountable. And so I think some of the most successful, not to say what success looks like, but some of the more successful stories of organizations who have come into this journey, of co-agitation, racial justice, has been to be really transparent about their process and journey. And they've created this trust and this reciprocity with their community so that their community can be a part of informing it. And I think if more people were willing to do that, to open themselves up to that, the idea of missing the mark or getting it wrong, would feel less of a judgment or permanent. And instead feel like, oh, this is just part of the process. It's part of learning. 

BIRD: Yeah, that's incredible. And oh, Megan, what you said. I really hope sets someone free. Like you're going to get it wrong, you're gonna mess up, we mess up, right? I think so many people were just like, paralyzed in fear last year. I had clients asking me how to show up. And I think it really spoke volumes, or at least to me, for the people who didn't speak up in some way. 

I was working with a marketing team I had just hired who was completely silent on the whole issue. And I just felt like they didn't manage it well, and I decided to pull out and go a different direction. That's what led me to do that article on why I checked for the black square, which I know was controversial. And I know, the black square alone is performative. But to this day, I'll still be scrolling back to June of 2020 to figure out what people were talking about in that time. And then it doesn't stop there. Right, then I go to the website. And I've seen really interesting and incredible things on websites like when they list their core values or their mission, they inject something there that's very direct about where they stand on these issues. Or even in like the forums people have on their website, where it's like you're filling out like a form, they're very honest about we support these communities. I think that's really helpful to me in feeling, especially as a person of color, I'm going to be seen and protected or safe with this organization. 

So when it comes to people kind of thinking about branding, I guess, making those statements, do y'all have any tips for navigating like that uncomfortable or awkwardness around that? Does that make sense, what I'm asking?

VIRGINIA: Yeah, I think my biggest recommendation, Megan and I talk about this, even in our individual lives, as sort of public voices, is to not feel the pressure to respond, always. One, always and in a manner that says, we got to get a statement out 24 hours, 48 hours. There's actually power, not in silence, but in thoughtfulness. So we're not asking you to be silent, but we're asking you to be thoughtful, and to in some ways, interrogate why you feel the need to respond so quickly. Because for the most part, if you ask yourself that question, it's because "we don't want to be seen as", or "we want the perception to be", which isn't coming from an authentic place. That's coming from a performative place, right, and a selfish place to protect yourself. 

So I think the first thing is to interrogate if you need to say something if that's the space you're being asked or called into. And the second thing is to be thoughtful about it. And that thoughtfulness will tend to lead you to the right place, also tend to lead you to the right voices within your organization to help you craft what that looks like and sounds like. Because imagine the power that it would come instead of spending the 12 crisis hours coming up with a blanketed statement, that probably ends up being pretty empty. And that 12 hours went into, "Hey, actually, can we show up in our community, and take some resources? Or can we show up in asking a partner, how can we show up in a meaningful way for you? 

And make it tangible, make it local, make it intimate, rather than this statement that goes into the internet ether. And so I think my biggest thing is pause. There's power in the pause because that tends to lead you to a more meaningful response. 

And I think the other piece is, we need to move ourselves from just being responsive, to move ourselves from just being reactive to these inflection points that happen in the world. That's what ultimately is not creating transformation or shift in our systems because we're just responding to trauma, rather than creating an ethos within our organization where this is a part of our everyday work. We don't have to respond, because this is a part of how we live. 

BIRD: Yes. 

MEGAN: Yeah, I was gonna say that too, Virginia. Racial injustice didn't start June 2020 and it hasn’t ended. We know George Floyd's name and Brianna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery. We know their names because those are the ones that went viral. That doesn't mean those are the only ones that have endured violence and murder at the hands of police. And that's not the only racial injustice. To really commit for the long haul, I think you have to really drill down on what your values are. 

And the companies that I can think of that I really appreciate, are the ones that really give tangible things that they do. And so if you're going to make a statement, it's like, when they're transparent about their failures, we recognize this on my podcast, because we're white. And this very large platform has power, right? It has exposure, it exposes you to partners and all this stuff. There's an economic engine that's behind it, it's not just an appearance on a podcast. And what I am prepared to do is this. And I appreciate values that reflect internal learning and unlearning that really kind of say like, first of all, we recognize that we need to learn and unlearn some stuff. But then also, like, this is how we show up.  And again, there is a balance to this, right? You don't need to publicize every single thing that you do. Let's not tokenize. But I think the idea that you could say something broadly like I am committing to be more intentional about who I invite on or whatever, and trying to explore ways to expand my community and expose my community to more diverse voices or whatever. For me, and I'm not speaking for all black people, there's a lot of pressure. But for me, personally, I can appreciate that more than some blanket like Black Lives Matter statement that doesn't reflect anything. Because a lot of those companies and a lot of these businesses, if you go ask their employees of color, though, about their experience internally, they're going to get ripped to shreds, right? Because they haven't done the internal work to really eradicate racial injustice in their own systems.

VIRGINIA: And I liken it to I know we've all had experience in cities like Austin. I know that you and Megan met and I still live there. I liken it to we talk a lot about sort of the social cues that we see in yard signs in certain neighborhoods. Like, okay, everyone in this neighborhood has a Black Lives Matter sign. And in this household science is real. And you're like, okay, that's lovely. Right? But in some ways, it becomes the thing well my neighbor did it. So I guess I should do it because I don't want them to think I'm racist, right? But if we were to interrogate like, okay, well, how is this showing up in your organization? Also, showing up in how you're rearing your children? How is it showing up in your faith community? How is it showing up in how you voted last week? You say Black Lives Matter, but when we asked you about making sure that we had equitable housing, you voted no against it. And so I think if we take that from our personal interpersonal dynamics, and we align that with how we go about our businesses. Putting a statement on your website that says that you stand in solidarity with certain organizations, only is meaningful if your practices uphold that. And so being willing to do that work, I think means, as Megan said, coming from a place of honesty. I think it's easier sometimes to be like, oh, as an organization, we have not done this well. 

BIRD: Yeah. 

VIRGINIA: I've actually also really appreciated organizations where their leadership has been transparent about their personal missteps or taking accountability for the ways in which these conversations have not been present, or have not been visible within their organization. And so taking some ownership of that, I think, is also powerful.

BIRD: Yes. Because as a leader, what you're dealing with and who you are as an individual is going to seep into your business, into who you hire, how you train, what you value, what you prioritize, and on and on. So that's huge in terms of leadership. 

Megan also said something that made me think of this story. With all of that was going on last year there was a grant for black-owned businesses that we applied to. And it's a very famous company that everyone would know if I mentioned the name, but I won't. At the end of the form, it was like, what could we do to better to help black people and black businesses is basically the question. So I was going to just put something and I said, hold on, let me go and actually look on their website at their team, their team page, go to the about, go to the team page. And it was like white person, white person, white person, white person, white person. But I mean, it was like all white people, except for the one token black person who was like head of diversity or whatever. It's like, yes, you have this grant, which I was very grateful for. But like, if your entire leadership team is white, then it's going to be very unlikely that you're going to be able to have the diversity, you need to create spaces for people who don't look like you. And so when it comes to small business owners because obviously, we don't have these huge teams. One thing I have talked about is like board of advisors. There's board of directors, there's board of advisers and there's differences there. But when you have advisors, if they all look the same, then you're going to get a lot of the same feedback, a lot of the same like you're talking about network. But if you begin to diversify there the ideas you get, the connections you receive will also be diverse. So I think that goes to what Virginia saying so beautifully about your processes and practices changing and not it just being like a statement.

VIRGINIA: Rachel Cargill was doing a talk and she talked about how if you've not done the work to make the spaces that you're inviting diverse voices into, then you're just bringing people of color into harmful and violent spaces.

And I always talk about how that word violent, obviously is really jarring for people. They're like, "Violence. Like we're not violent." But like harm is expressed in very different ways, right? It's emotional harm. It's psychological harm. It is physical harm because like we're exhausted because we're being asked to navigate the space to do our jobs, plus, navigate the space built by us. And so like, if you haven't done the work, to prepare, I always liken this to like, you're inviting some people over for dinner. You just open the door, and then just like, alright, well, there's food somewhere in this house. Find it. You'll find the bathroom. Like hospitality, right? Active hospitality that honors the needs of the people you've invited into that space. Right? Okay, well, this friend has a gluten intolerance. And this friend can't eat cheese or milk. Like that's the type of work you need. 

MEGAN: That was painful.

VIRGINIA: Sorry, Megan. I didn't mean to do that. Megan isn't eating dairy right now. And I shouldn't have done that. That was mean. I'm so sorry. But you wouldn't be able to have a relationship with that person if you felt like that person didn't value what they needed in order to be in the space you invited them into. And so it's not enough just to seek out voices. You have to do the work to prepare that space to honor who they innately are. And I think the other piece of that isn't just around sort of the environment. But also, you talked about a board of advisors, which we have, which has been really, really valuable. Because Megan and I are like, we are two black women who have created an organization to support women of color. As much as we can emphasize, our story is only our story. So we need other voices, other lived experiences. And it's been such a valuable piece of building what Rosa Rebellion is. 

And I have this one client who owns this company that focuses on resources and materials and products that you can use in different spheres of your life. And they were talking about a lack of diverse customers that are buying their products. And like we were saying, and I again, website, very telling piece of information. And all of the scientists that were helping them make the products, all of their advisors that were helping them test the products, were white. And I'm like, because this person, they're only relying on what they've used for their hair and their skin. And so how do you think you can create a product that will innately connect to this community of people when you're just basing it off of assumptions. And so we looked at it, we're like, it's so simple. It's so simple. By just reminding folks of like, again, I love this definition of like creating a space of belonging. It's like active hospitality. What are you doing over and over again, to make sure you've created an environment that truly is being activated to support people being able to walk in this world in their authentic selves, not having to truncate who they are, not having to assimilate, not having to leave part of themselves outside of their workplace. 

MEGAN: And part of it is even recognizing that people of color do that. So many white people that we talk to like don't even have that initial piece of just realizing like, Oh, wait, like, you code-switch? You edit yourself? Oh, I have never really thought about that. And so, again, that's the individual work of figuring out like, what you don't know and exploring. And I was thinking about another piece of just like, how you show up from an honest and authentic place. I've really appreciated people have come to me and said, "Look, I want to ask you some questions. I realize that you don't have to answer them. And I also realize that I'm asking you a lot. Because I recognize that as a black woman, you probably get asked this stuff all the time. I want you to know, I was reading x, I learned this, and I had never heard it before. So I want it to get a reaction from someone that I knew and hear more." So you've told me you recognize the burden you're putting on me. You recognize that it's a gift if I answered you. And you've done initial work for yourself, and you're coming to me to have a conversation. Some white people don't want to talk to you about it. And that's their right. For me that communicates a posture of like humility and real commitment. And so then I'm kind of more willing to engage.

Everything that Virginia has said, which I'm like, is amazing. And a lot of times I'm like, I just interviewed Virginia, like she's so great. I learn so much from her. But just trying to put some tangible actions to what that might look like. 

BIRD: No, you have both, I mean, just brought so much gold. And I really appreciate it on so many levels. Again, I had, like I said, so many clients, business owners reaching out to me last year, like what to do, how to do this. And I tell this to Megan, all the time. People were asking me to be on podcasts and panels and interviews. I'm like, I don't know how to talk to racial issues. I don't have that background. And again, going back and putting that onus on black people as if we can speak for all black people. I was learning stuff about our history. I didn't know about black Wall Street. I'm like, what? 

VIRGINIA: Ashley, that's actually so good, maybe a whole nother podcast. But that piece right there. It's like white supremacy and racial injustice. Like it's harmful for all of us. And what I think people don't realize is like, we also have been traumatized by the lack of history and knowledge that we've been exposed to. Our education lied to us for most of our lives, right? And so I think that's also the pieces like this process of over the last few years and decades is a part of us equipping ourselves with knowledge and information to empower us. And I think that's sometimes the frustrating part is like, my experience as a black woman is a part of my own education. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, just what you said right there. I'm like, that, to me, it's infuriating, and gives me chills. And it's like, we didn't know our own history. We don't know our own stories. And that's part of the failure of our community and our institutions. 

MEGAN: And that's certainly part of why we do Rosa Rebellion. It's like, we want to tell our own stories. We want to be sure that those stories are archived for our podcast. That's what gen/activist is, is trying to archive our stories. Go listen to us. And it intentionally centers women of color. It's for us by us. But like, G-mom always says, who's our co host of the podcast. She always says, but it's like leaving the door open, right? Like you're having a conversation in a living room, but you're leaving the door open for like white people to listen in and learn too. But it's certainly centered around like, there's so many stories we didn't know, that really can empower us in our work and change the way we move through the world. And that is also true for people who are not people of color. That's also true for white people, that as you learn our history, which is really a collective history. The story of America is a collective history. It will change or should change, at least, how you show up in every space, including your business. 

BIRD: Yes. Oh, my goodness, incredible. Thank you, ladies so much. I hope that again, my audience of business owners, even those who are like newbie, they're just getting into the space. And y'all know, with entrepreneurship, it's like all the things. There's so much to do. There's branding, there's administrative, there's financials, there's a lot going on, operations. And so then you're like talking to me about how to show up as a creative activist and how to co-agitate in my business and through my brand. But it's important, and it's important because of what Virginia said about how white supremacy affects all of us. 

I listened to this podcast, I can't remember even the guy. It was an amazing podcast. And he talked about exactly that and how we don't want to have another war. There are so many ways in which if we don't fix some of these systems, now, it's going to affect all of us, our money, all the things. And so I'll be sure to link that in the show notes. And I'm going to also link to gen/activist, your incredible podcast. So one thing business owners can do right now is learning and unlearning. And a great way to learn is to go and check out all of Rosa Rebellion's resources, especially gen/activist. It's an easy way you can go right now on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and check it out. And do that. Lean into that process of learning and unlearning. And then explore your core values. Explore your mission. Explore the practices and procedures you have in your brand. Make the world a better place because we can all really do that. 

Again, thank y'all so much for your time. Thank you for your amazing words and just your presence. And all of this has been better than I could have imagined. I could not have had this conversation with anyone better. So thank you so much. 

MEGAN: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

VIRGINIA: Thanks for creating this space. 

MEGAN: I finally made it! I made Bird Williams' podcast. 

BIRD: One thing I do want to ask though is I know so many people are going to want to support your mission and connect with you online. So where can they find you best?

VIRGINIA: We're on Instagram and Twitter @rosarebellion. Our website is rosarebellion.com. And you can also find contact information for Megan and myself on all of those platforms. And then as we shared before we have gen/activist, our podcast. And the rest of our programming you can also find on our website.

BIRD: Incredible. Thank you. Thank you. I so appreciate you both. 

VIRGINIA AND MEGAN: Thank you. 

BIRD: This conversation with Virginia and Megan was a thousand times more powerful than I could have even dreamt it would be. I have so much gratitude for these ladies, for how they speak to this subject and equip us to show up better in our brands through this work. 

You want to know who else I have gratitude for? You. Thank you for listening all the way through, and for really leaning into this awkward, uncomfortable, but hopeful conversation. My hope is that you don't just stop here though. Continue to embrace the process of learning and unlearning, of pausing, of examining your mission and core values, of updating your processes and procedures, and applying what you learned here today into your brand. You'll find all the ways to connect with Rosa Rebellion in the links in the show notes. So you already have an incredible resource as you navigate this process. 

As always, thank you for tuning into Bird Means Business podcast. Thank you for subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And make sure you follow us on Spotify. And be sure you spread the news you share the love in tell every entrepreneur you know about this episode, so they can co-agitate for racial justice through their businesses too. 

Talk to you next week.