BIRD WILLIAMS: You’re listening to Bird Means Business Episode 49. 

Oh, my friend. My friend, you are in for a treat. Today I have Marlene Williams on the show. And when I tell you she gives some of the most practical mental health advice I have ever received. This is going to be one of those episodes that you want to save, bookmark, share the link with a friend because it is that good. And I don't even want to hype it up, but I know I say a lot. Like, ooh, this is my favorite episode now. This is my new favorite episode cause I get so excited with what I get to share here on the Bird Means Business podcast. But y'all this one. You know, they say, like it hits different. That's me being a cool mom. It hits different. Like this one is on another level. It's definitely in one of my top five because it really does hit home for me personally in a few ways. 

First, I experienced severe anxiety for years, and I actually share a bit about this in our conversation in the episode. But also, I've had entrepreneurs open up to me about their struggles with anxiety in their businesses, or even feeling depression. And I just know that it's not something we talk enough about. And so I'm so glad that we have an entire episode dedicated to it. And honestly, after having this conversation with Marlene, I'm like we need to do more of this. I'm going to definitely find more ways to incorporate it into the show. Also, it's personal for me because I have the honor of interviewing my sister-in-law, Ph.D. college professor Marlene Williams. And it's awesome because we first met in college. I remember when my new boyfriend who's now my husband, Terry, was interning with Atlantic Records out in LA. And he said, “Hey, my sister is going to be coming to UT for the summer. I'm not there. Can you show her the ropes?” And I was so happy to. And y'all, we clicked from day one. She's like a sister to me for real. So let me tell you a little bit about her professionally though. Marlene Williams is a psychology resident professor and researcher from Houston, Texas. She's currently an assistant professor in the Counseling Psychology program at Texas Woman's University, working on licensure in Texas. Marlene received her doctorate in counseling psychology from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. She has a passionate commitment to social justice advocacy and identity-based equity. During her training, she gained clinical experience grounded in cultural and trauma-informed mental health care in various settings. In addition, she has an ongoing research agenda focused on illuminating the correlates of mental and physical health among black women, as they relate to experiences of racism and sexism. Whew! I am so glad I get to call this powerhouse of a woman, my family, and my friend, and I can't wait for you to hear from her. You're going to really need to get ready to take notes because it's so good. We're going to talk about the unique mental health challenges that entrepreneurs face. What some of those like telltale signs are that you could be dealing with - anxiety or depression that maybe is kind of spiraled out of control. She also gives us this four-step process of how to manage anxiety and depression, which is clutch. I actually advise that you write it out and stick it somewhere that you're going to see again and again so that it's top of mine. And we're gonna talk about how entrepreneurs can really protect their mental health from the outset, starting strong to get these really healthy habits around mental health. You're going to hear us talk a bit about self-care. And so I wanted to make sure to link my free guide called “Self Care is in the Everyday”. I'm going to link it here in the show notes so that you can click it, download it for free. And really think about how to incorporate self-care into every day. It doesn't have to always be the big golfing trip or the spa day. It could be in these day-to-day things where you can really prioritize your well-being. So go to the show notes to get the link to download that free guide. 

All right, I'm not going to have you wait any longer. Here is the conversation I had with Marlene Williams on Navigating Mental Health in Entrepreneurship. 

Marlene, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you on the Bird Means Business podcast. How you doing today?

MARLENE WILLIAMS: I'm so excited to be here. So I'm doing really really good.

BIRD: Awesome! I know this episode is going to be so powerful because I have heard story after story from entrepreneurs who are just overwhelmed. They have anxiety. They're very lonely, some even experienced depression, because of the unique nature of what it is to run a business and all the pressures. So I'm excited to get into that. But I really want to start with asking you just about your journey of becoming a mental health professional, and how you got to where you are today.

MARLENE: Sure, yeah, I've had kind of a roundabout trajectory to where I am. But basically, what has driven me to this point is my passion for helping people of color, other marginalized people, black people, in particular, with healing from different forms of discrimination and oppression. So I started out as a history major for education, with an emphasis in African American History. You know that. We go way back to college. But from that formed more of a passion for understanding the long-term psychological impacts of racism, slavery, things like that. So I've done a lot of research, clinical work, and education work in that realm. And I love it. I am, this is me. This is what I should be doing. So I'm very happy. 

BIRD: That is incredible. I love it. I was just sharing this the other day, how amazing it is to really walk in your purpose and walk in what you know, lights you up, and, and getting to do that every day. And it doesn't mean that it's like rainbows and unicorns all the time, or super fun all the time. But it's, it's like so motivating and powerful because you really are in your lane. So I can totally see that. I've seen you, you know, flourish in this role and with where you are now, and I'm just so proud of you. And I'm just again, so happy to have you on the show to kind of talk through all of this. 

So, again, you know, there are I believe, you know, maybe I'm biased because I'm an entrepreneur, but I feel like there are some unique mental health challenges that entrepreneurs face. And I mean, I do know that entrepreneurship can be very lonely, especially because I don't think a lot of people really understand what it's like. Your friends assume that since you don't have a nine to five, you're just out here. Like you can have lunch at any time. Your schedule is your own. I mean, it is maybe flexible but you still have a whole lot to do if not maybe more to do than a regular person that has a job, who has coworkers who can take some of the slack. You don't have that as an entrepreneur. So there's a lot of pressure in that way as well. And then imposter syndrome, which I hear a lot, especially from new entrepreneurs who maybe identify as one thing, you know. I actually just had a consultation call yesterday with a young lady who was like, for the last 10 years, I've been in this job, all of my family and friends know me as this. And now I'm trying to pivot and be this business owner and do this completely different thing. And I just feel like, they're gonna be like, who do you think you are? And what do you think you're doing all of a sudden being this other, you know, profession, having this other interest? And so there's imposter syndrome. And then there's just like burnout, you know, working too hard, not having enough self-care, all of that. So, you know, what would be your thoughts around some of the unique mental health challenges that entrepreneurs face and how they should navigate that?

MARLENE: Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot. And I think what comes to my mind, first, are a lot of everything that you’ve shared, right? That, inherently, there's less of a defined structure for your schedule for your day. So a lot of that falls on you. Right? And also, I think, inherently, what's really unique about entrepreneurship, is that there is this level of risk-taking, right? You are taking a risk when you decide to start something up, start your own business. With taking risks like that, naturally, there's going to be some anxiousness, some nervousness, all of those thoughts of like, can I do this, is this possible? Right? 

BIRD: Yes. 

MARLENE: That part is so unique to this experience of entrepreneurship. And I think one thing that really stands out to me about entrepreneurship, making your own schedules, dealing with the pressures that come from the risks involved, is that when entrepreneurs are making their own schedules, or setting your own deadlines, your launches for your businesses. Is that typically, people are thinking about just the external resources that they have in order to meet those deadlines. Like, do I have the finances? Do I have maybe other people who could help? Do I have the time? But something that is less tapped into are things like internal resources meaning you, you. Not like internal in your business. But like you. So there's less of that wondering about when you're sitting there making timelines, deadlines, of checking in with yourself. Do I have the emotional and mental capacity to carry out all of these goals that I have set out for myself, right? And so everything that I'm going to be sharing, you know, throughout today, is through that lens. Putting yourself, inserting yourself and your capacity into these really risky decisions that we're having, you're having to make. And can help with some of that imposter syndrome too. I think that part is going to be so, so important. Taking care of yourself first.

BIRD: Wow, that is a great perspective. And something that I didn't really think of in that way as it relates to mental health. But I do talk a lot about kind of approaching business from a holistic standpoint. You know, that I’m all into holistic medicine and like, health and all of that. I see a holistic doctor. And don't take prescription medicine and stuff. But I think of your business in the same way. A lot of people will think, I'm launching a business and it's all about the business. Let me focus on it. They kind of forget about focusing on themselves and forget that they are at the crux of their business success. They, in their mind, will say, I just need enough money. Like you're saying all these extras. If I can get this, this, and this. But it's like, well, how are you? And I say this a lot.  Your business will smell of you. Meaning, if you're stressed out, your team is going to feel it, your vendors are going to feel it, your clients are going to feel it, you know. So you can't just ignore yourself. You are a part of the equation. You are a big, very important part. And so, I do have a guide on self-care. I'll share the link to that in the show notes. But anyway, I think that's a great point. And I think you have to be really self-aware to be able to have those kinds of check-ins. I'm excited to talk through more of that. That is great. 

I want to know if there's someone who's listening because I always really try to think about who will tune in, and where they are. Maybe they're scrolling through Apple podcasts and they see this episode on navigating Mental Health in Entrepreneurship. They're going to click it because either they are experiencing anxiety or depression as an entrepreneur. Or they wonder if they do and they're not really sure. So what are some of those, like telltale signs that you are indeed in that place? And I know that it can be a little tricky maybe to answer that question. But that's my first question. And then my next question would be if they do identify as being in that place, what are some, like next steps they should take? You know, in addition to seeking help, is there anything that they could do in their day-to-day life to kind of help manage what they're feeling? 

MARLENE: Sure, absolutely. Yeah. First, before I formally answer, I'm gonna say my disclaimer that I tell everybody. Everyone experiences some form of depressive symptoms at some point in their life. And everyone will experience some form of anxiousness. So I don't want anyone to be alarmed as I’m talking about, “Oh, if you might be experiencing some of these things.” Not to be too alarmed to think, “Oh, I have this and it's extreme, and I need to get help now”. Right? There's a difference between experiencing some of these symptoms of anxiety and depression that we all do and we’re able to manage it, get through it, still do the work that we need to do. Where it becomes a very serious concern is when you're experiencing these things for an extended period of time, and it is significantly impairing your ability to get out of bed, to make the phone calls you need to make for your business, right? When you find that happening, or even like your social life typically is one of those places that gets impacted as well. So if you're finding that significantly being impaired, then yes. The concern level goes a little higher. 

But for most of us, we're experiencing this all the time, and we're able to kind of power through. So yeah, we'll also talk about how to help manage those things. So, one, if we talk about depression. And, and really, burnout is kind of linked with that. They can look, feel, and be experienced very similarly. With that, the telltale signs of experiencing that as when you are having trouble feeling uplifted, or happy for most days. Maybe your mood is a little bit more down. You have less energy, less motivation to do the things that you typically enjoy doing. You might even find fluctuations in appetite, in weight. So different people will feel some of these physically as well. Not just emotionally. But the main things are: it's difficult for you to even do the work that you typically do, and your mood is lower than normal. 

And then for anxiety, I always say anxiety basically is when we are living too far into the future. So, so many worries and nervousness with thoughts of questions like, what if, but, what if it goes like. Basically, we're thinking of the worst-case scenario. And so that can make it difficult to like to be in the present, in the present moment, right? And for most people, that's experienced as having difficulty concentrating on one thing, or that, you know, the few things that you have to do. Some people might feel it also physically, again, where your nervous system is reacting to your environment. So it feels like something is threatening or very risky. So, sweaty palms, heart rate is racing for at moments were really, it seems like there's not really a threat around. But your body and your mind are perceiving that to happen. Difficulty sleeping. That can be impacted by both of these as well. So again, those are just kind of like those signs of like, “Hmm, I might need to check this out or do something to help prevent it from getting worse.” Then when we get to like, okay, what can we do? What is helpful with this? Of course, number one that I tell everybody is, if you're ever wandering, and you need more information, definitely seek out therapy. I think that's always a good option. 

For our more daily life, things that we can do, I think I've kind of like, broken it down into different pieces. One is to observe, feel, release, and engage.

So the first part is observe. Like, observe how you're feeling. Are there patterns in your mood? And there are now apps that you can use. You can journal it yourself of like, what are your, what are the emotions you're feeling? What are the moves that you're having? And over time, it allows you to see the patterns. And you can even take note of like, oh, that was around this huge launch date that I had. Or this was during, guess what - a pandemic. Things like that. So you can get more context and see what might be going on for you. So observe to like, try to understand. 

And then feel. I can't say this enough, that typically what we do, hard-working people, we suck it up, we swallow it down, we avoid the feels, we avoid the feelings that we have. And what ends up happening is it just ends up sitting right here. It's waiting to come up. It's just waiting, right? So allow yourself, schedule some time to sit in that. And do whatever that might mean for you. Maybe it's like taking some time to rest or whatever it is so that you're not avoiding that feeling. 

And then instead of just staying there, you can find creative ways to release it. Maybe that's through art, music. I've heard beautiful stories of people connecting to themselves and their feelings through music, journaling, leaning on support of other people around you that you can talk to, to express how you're feeling.

And then the last piece of that is engage or activate, could be either of those. And what I really mean by that is specific to, if you're experiencing some burnout slash depressive symptoms, or experiencing anxiety. Typically, not all the time. But typically, the answer to helping us with those is literally doing the opposite of what we feel like doing in that moment. And it’s hard. It is so hard. If we’re feeling burnt out, and we feel like isolating ourselves from others, because we just, we just can't deal. It’s too overwhelming. Give yourself some time, sure. But if it's going on for an extended period of time, it's going to be helpful that you literally activate yourself by going to exercise, going to walk, going to be more social, and interact with other people, even though it doesn't feel right. Sometimes we have to activate it before our mind is ready. And the same for anxiety. Anxiety makes us avoid. So because maybe I'm nervous about this launch coming up, for example, and I've got to make these really important phone calls. If I have a bunch of anxiety, it's going to cause me to push it back and push it back and avoid doing those tasks that I need to do. So we got to really sit with ourselves and ask like, what are we scared of? What's the fear here, and, and face it, or get support if we can't do it alone. Because you don't have to do it alone all the time, we have people like Bird to check in with and get that support. But sometimes it does mean like, not avoiding it. When you avoid, you just kind of perpetuate the cycle. You reinforce the anxiety. That was a mouthful. But I mean, what does that sound like to you?

BIRD: That was amazing. I mean, I love everything you said. You're speaking my language, especially when you mentioned, you don't have to do it alone, and getting support. But I love even just that breakdown - observe, feel, release and engage. I mean, that's gold right there. And I love that it starts with observing. And kind of like what I brought up with self-awareness and being aware of, you know, aware enough of where you are, having those check-ins with yourself. I think you mentioned this earlier, we have check-ins for our business. You know, you check in with your finances, maybe with your CPA. You maybe have weekly or whatever it might be, check-ins with your team. But when are you, as the business owner, as the leader saying, “This is the time where I'm going to check in with myself.” Maybe I have a list of questions that I ask myself. My check-in also maybe happens with a mentor or someone on my board of advisors or me or you know, a business strategist or a coach. Someone that you can also say like, Hey, where am I? I think that is so so, so key. 

And yes, you're right, we don't want to feel a lot of times. I'm guilty of wanting to suppress my feelings, because it's like, I don't have time for that. I can't go down that road because I had to get this and this and this and this done. And then it just leads to burnout. Or a lot of times I actually find that it leads to physical issues, like I get sick, basically. For years, that was my way of realizing I was stressed. I could not identify stress. So my doctor would ask me if I was stressed. And I would say no, I'm not stressed. And they were like, okay, it's interesting, given your symptoms. And I'd say you know, tell me about your day or your week. And I'd be like, oh, okay, well, here we go. And I'm telling him all the things. And they're like, so you're definitely stressed. I did not think of it as stress. And this is just my life, like, this is just how it goes. What I would find though, is if I just keep going, I'll start to get I'll get a cold. Or I'll get some terrible, you know, sickness or whatever, then I'm done. I'm like, in the bed for three days. And that's even worse, right? So it's good to be able to really observe and feel so that you can release and figure out. And the engaging part is important too. I was just telling a friend, it's like, you know when you're in a bad mood, and you just want to like, like, I guess watch a sad movie and cry and eat popcorn, and like candy and like, like, you know, whatever? You don't care about life. It's like, you should actually do the opposite. Like, you should probably get outside. Get some sun. Walk just five minutes. Just walk around the neighborhood. Whatever it might be, and that will be what you need to lift yourself up and not stay in this funk. You know, but again, it's hard because you want to do what your flesh, you know, your nature wants to do, which is just be sad for yourself. And you can't always do it alone. But we have other people, your spouse, a best friend, a sister, a mother, to say, Hey, I'm in one of those places, can you just talk with me? Or can you encourage me? Or whatever it might be. Listen to a message or something, you know, motivating, a podcast you like, to kind of just get you out of that place. So that's amazing. 

And I'll just say this. I actually experienced anxiety after having my first baby, Baby Terry. And it was like something I'd never experienced before. And I wasn't observing, so I didn't even know it was anxiety for a long time. And it was first in my thoughts. And it's very common, I've learned since, for women to experience postpartum anxiety. But I had only heard of postpartum depression. I had never heard of postpartum anxiety. So I was assuming, well, I'm not depressed. I'm not sad, or I don't have bad feelings toward my baby. But I was terrified of these random things happening. Like he was born around Halloween and I just was like, someone's going to do a seance on him. And I had to turn the light off in his room because it faced the window to the street. And someone's going to see and they're going to come and you know, just random things. I thought there might be a sinkhole underneath his room in our house. And when I say it now, obviously I can kind of chuckle, but I probably shouldn't.

MARLENE:  It was real back then. You really felt this.  

BIRD: Well, and it wasn't until my husband Terry said like, hey. And you know he's super-duper positive. You know, he's your brother. He was like, maybe you need to go see someone, like, I'll go with you, I'll support it. And I was like, oh, shoot. It must be bad for him to say that. And I read an article from Chrissy Teigen, where she talked about postpartum anxiety that she experienced. And that's when I realized, oh, my goodness, I have that. And then I was able to be, again, kind of aware of it and, you know, work through that process. So, you know, I know a lot of people might feel like, yeah, because I mean, I would have never thought that I'd have an issue with mental health, that severe, at least. And I certainly did. And so I mean, no one is above it. I like to talk about my story because people see me as like, they try to say I'm Superwoman or power. And I don't obviously identify as any of that. But, but yeah, me I dealt, I totally dealt with that and had to work through it for like years. And I'm thankful to God that it's not something I still deal with, but I know that it can flare up, I know that it could come back. So I'm very active, proactive in how I'm taking care of my body. And like you said, observing where I am and being very honest with myself there.

MARLENE: Yes. Can I add one more thing there? Cause it could help with that, and anxiety specific to entrepreneurship. Which is when the anxious thoughts come in, one of the major things, and it is hard to do, sometimes by yourself, but is literally like, going back to the facts. Like what do you know for sure, right? And because a lot of times when you go back through that thought process only based on fact. You realize that, okay, I'm actually exaggerating or what we call catastrophizing. I'm looking for this worst-case scenario, that I have no evidence, no evidence to support, that that could actually happen, right? And then on top of that, what I always tell people is, because we end up getting down to like, what's, what are you? What's the fear? Like? What are you scared of? And even then, it's like, what, even if that worst-case scenario happened, right? Let's name out all the tools, people, and resources you have that would help you get through it. So it helps you realize that those fears and anxieties that you have really don't have all the power and control over you. Even if that happened, guess what? You'd figure something out. You’d get out of it. You'd manage it. You’d call Bird. You’d call whoever your advisors are, to help you through it, to know that you can get through whatever that is that you're concerned about possibly happening. 

BIRD: Yes, absolutely. Oh, I love that so much. It is very, very important to, like you said, identify the power it has or doesn't have, because it might not be as scary as it may seem. You have some resources that you can tap into to help you get through that. And I love what you said too. It’s something that Megan Harding actually said to me years ago. She said, “Don't replace what you know, with what you don't know.” You know this, this and this, and you're gonna replace it with all these other things. So that’s applicable in your regular life too. So I love that you brought that up. 

MARLENE: And thank you for sharing, you know, your personal experience. I think that's helpful for people to hear, right? There's so many people. I sit with people all the time. And I get to see their vulnerable parts of themselves. But I'm sure the rest of the world thinks, “Oh, they're perfect. Everything is put together.” But we all feel it. We all experience this. 

BIRD: Absolutely. And whenever I shared it on my personal page, probably a year ago or so. And I mean, the response was like, oh, my goodness, thank you for sharing your story. And a lot of it was DMs and private messages of people saying, I've experienced this, but I thought something was wrong with me. Basically, it's like, I didn't realize how big of a deal it would have been to share it. And you know me. I'm really transparent, and I try to keep it all the way real. Especially on the podcast. Sharing what all of this really looks like. I did an episode called “Ho I Don’t Do It All” because people would ask me all the time, “How do you do it all?” And I'm like, I don't know I have my mom, she helps so much with our kids. Are you kidding me? I don’t know what I would do without her. I have all this support. And I have these tools I use. I have systems. And so it's the same with this. It's like, you can own multiple businesses and have a family and have all this stuff going on and still experience mental health issues. It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you, you know, anything. It's just, it's just life and it's just important to talk about it so that people know. It gets normalized and people are then equipped and empowered to like say okay, I have tools. I can get through this, you know, someone else did. So I love that so much. Thank you for giving us that. Observe, feel, release. 

MARLENE: And engage.

BIRD: And that is so good. I'm definitely gonna lay that out in the show notes. Because I think that it's just a really great thing you can write down. Stuff like that y'all, just to take it real practical. When I hear stuff like this on a podcast or whatever, I will literally write those words out on the go, on like a sticky note. And tape it somewhere into my planner, or on my computer, somewhere to where I can just see it so that I'm constantly thinking about it. Or if I find myself in a moment, I can just go to it and say, okay, let me walk through these steps so that I can help manage it in the moment. 

MARLENE: Absolutely. I do the same. 

BIRD: It's important. It's important to really make it practical. So okay, what is one piece of advice you would give someone who is starting a business around protecting their mental health from the outset? So like kind of starting with some of these good tools and ways to manage it.

BIRD: Oh, yeah. Okay. Number one thing. It has to do with mindset.  Do away with the mindset of I'll take care of myself later after I get after I do the work. Because we know, that's a lie. It's a lie. Because then what happens? After that, it’s another thing. It’s another deadline. It’s another launch. It's another whatever. And then sometimes even, I know this is true for myself. Then maybe I have a lull in time, in work, or maybe things go down a little bit. Then I feel imposter syndrome. And I'm like, oh, I'm not doing something, right. So it's a never-ending cycle, right? That is something that from the outset, we need to accept. Accept that that is true. There's always something to be done. There's always going to be something that you're going to think you need to do before you take care of yourself. So let's just accept that, right? That you're never going to be completely done. 

The second part of that is to do away with that mindset and go in viewing, you taking care of yourself as actually productive for your business.

BIRD: Whew!

MARLENE: I have this conversation with people all the time, that literally by you, nourishing your body, nurturing yourself, resting when you need to, you are going to have more energy, more focus, more motivation, to actually carry out the work that you need to do. And your outcome, your outputs, your productivity, the quality and efficiency of your work are going to be so much better. Again, what ends up happening a lot is we work, work, work, work work. We work. We don't take care of ourselves. And guess what? We actually end up missing some of the deadlines. So the very deadline date that we were setting out to do, ends up getting postponed or prolonged or delayed because we don't have energy. We don't have motivation. Would you drive a car with no gas? Would you get on your computer when it has no battery? No. And we are more important than these cars and computers, right? So we have to do the same for ourselves. And I think, If you go from the outset, accepting that, and viewing that as actually productive. I think you're gonna see your business actually benefit from that. You and your business will benefit.

BIRD: Yes, 100%. I love that so much. And I refer to it as redefining productivity. And it's something that I first had to do when I had my first baby. Because I was, of course, go go go. And y’all I completely misinterpreted what maternity leave was supposed to be. To me was like, oh, I'm gonna have this time where like, I can kind of like take off. But I'm going to do all these projects and things that like, I don't have to be at a gym to do. Basically, I was like, fitting in all these different projects I was gonna do. Even stuff around the house. No. You're exhausted. I'm trying to figure out breastfeeding. Baby’s up all the time. And so, I was really struggling in that season with redefining productivity. It was hard for me to just have to lay with my baby on the bed or whatever. That to me felt like I'm not getting anything done today. But I had to tell myself, no, this is productive. This is bonding with your new baby. And that's very important for the baby's development. It’s very important for my development, even like in my body. It's good for your body to bond with your baby and all these things. So even with your business, really kind of redefining productivity is not just all about the business and what it's doing in terms of reaching your goals, revenue goals, etc. It's also productivity in my business is me being okay, is me getting a workout, is me drinking enough water a day, is me having some kind of connection with some human. Because we can get so wrapped up in our business, we look up and we've been on our computer for the whole day and haven't actually connected with anybody. So redefine what productivity is. Society glorifies the hustle. And it glorifies, “I’ll sleep when I die.” Actually, no. You’re gonna have to sleep tonight.

MARLENE: Yes, and whether you want to or not, your body’s going to shut down. You don’t necessarily have a choice. 

BIRD: So we’re really fighting what we're fed, or what we’re meant to believe, as what success is. And saying, no, I'm going to do it differently and I’m here for the long haul. And I want this to be sustained. And in order for that to work, I’m gonna have to take care of myself. So I love that. 

MARLENE: Yes. Yes.

BIRD: Awesome! This has been so amazing. I mean, even just for me. This has been great. So I really appreciate you coming on. I do want to ask you a question that I ask every single guest. And it is what is one thing you can do this week to bring you closer to the best version of yourself? 

MARLENE: That's a great question. The first thing I want to say is I'm going to take my own advice that I've shared with everybody today because I also am not immune to anything I've shared today. Okay, this is a human experience. But secondly, I am currently doing something for myself that I try to do daily. And I listened to a recent message from Steven Furtick about the power of questions. And it was so powerful. And so one of the questions that I'm asking myself every day, is how can I love myself better? And the hope or the aim, the goal is that through asking myself that question every morning, everything I do during the day is through that lens. That approach of giving myself grace, giving myself compassion, loving myself better, right? So right now, in this week, I am giving myself grace and compassion for not necessarily being able to be 100% given the political climate, the racial injustice, the pandemic, all of that. I'm giving myself some grace with that, and I'm taking it day by day. And I'm saying that that’s okay. I can do that. That's what my body and my mind need right now. 

BIRD: That is so good. Oh my gosh. And I love that you brought up Steven Furtick. 

MARLENE: Don’t get me started on him because I could go on and on.

BIRD: I do quiet time every day. And on Fridays, Terry and I do our quiet time together. And we've been watching Steven Furtick messages, and it's just like, ohhh.

MARLENE: It will get with you, okay? 

BIRD: All the way there. Like, it's like what is happening right now? It's so so good. So, yes, I love that that stems from that. I asked that question because I feel like you know, we have these big goals and big dreams and we make them annual or quarterly. And we don't think about the day-to-day. We don't bring them back to you know, what can I do today, this week, to bring me closer to those bigger goals or the best version of who I am. And so I love your answer to that question. 

I want to do a quick lightning round. And this is just where I ask five really simple questions, just so people can get to know you a little bit better. Here we go. What is your favorite meal?

MARLENE: Easy. Well, I have a lot. Do I need to say one? It's a lightning round, right? Okay, anything Thai curry anything.

BIRD: Aw, yes.

MARLENE: Anything anytime.

BIRD: Now, texting or talking? 

MARLENE: Texting.

BIRD: Same. same. Place you most want to travel.

MARLENE: Africa. Anywhere in Africa.

BIRD: Love it. Favorite holiday. 

MARLENE: Favorite holiday? Ooh, do I have one? I'm going to go ahead and say Christmas cause of family.

BIRD: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how long does it take you to get ready in the morning?

MARLENE: 15, 20 minutes, tops.

BIRD: I love it. Boom, boom, boom. That’s how I am. 

MARLENE: That part has been an evolution. I know I need to give myself more time. But I'm a work in progress.

BIRD: Same. So I love this. This has been incredible. Again, thank you so much for coming on. This is a topic that's very dear to my heart. Again, it's something I've experienced and many friends of mine have. And I really again just want entrepreneurs to think of themselves and think of their business holistically, including putting themselves in that picture. And I really just appreciate this conversation. It's been incredible. 

Now how can people connect with you online? I want them to learn more about you and connect with you there. Where are the best places they can get with you?

MARLENE: Sure. First, I want to thank you for having me again. Thank you for all of the hard work that you're doing for helping these budding entrepreneurs. Cause these kinds of conversations need to happen.

Yes, you can just follow up with me on Instagram @marlene.williamsphd. And yeah, you can find me there. I have all kinds of resources and helpful tips and tricks on there.

BIRD: Awesome. Thank you so much.

MARLENE: Thank you for having me.

BIRD: Okay. Wow. I mean, there are just so many layers to this conversation. And if it weren't for anybody else, it really helped me. I'm so glad that Marlene graced the show with her practical wisdom, and just realness, and transparency. I want you to make sure to connect with her on Instagram. It's @marlene.williamsphd. And I've actually linked it in the show notes as well. If you don't know every episode, I link anything that we share. So it's linked there where you can just click and go straight to her Instagram. Connect with her to get more of these types of practical tips around managing mental health. 

Also, we talked a lot about self-care, as I mentioned. So I have my free guide in the show notes as well linked there called “Self Care is in the Everyday” with tips on how to really make self-care a lifestyle. So if you want to download that for free, go to the link in the show notes, and you'll be able to do that. 

I hope that you feel a bit more powerful having tuned in to today's show. Having taken this time to really think through where you are to even carry this four-step process of observe, feel, release and engage with you. It’s powerful. It's important. So I hope that you really open up your heart and your mind to receive this information. And I hope that it really helps you along your entrepreneurial journey. If this episode, you know really struck you, or if you know of any entrepreneurs who could really benefit from hearing this, please share it with them. Let them know about the Bird Means Business podcast. 

This is the last episode of the four-part series on “Your Questions Answered”. I'm so glad that this is one of the questions asked and that we've been able to address it. But if you have more questions, it doesn’t have to be in a series. Don't ever hesitate to DM me, or shoot me an email so that we can connect further. All right, I hope you have a peaceful rest of your day. And I'll talk to you next week.